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	<title>Comments on: Do You Really Need a Framework for Writing PHP?</title>
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	<description>Created and Designed for Object Oriented PHP and Web Developers</description>
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		<title>By: Mark</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-28530</link>
		<dc:creator>Mark</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Wed, 23 Nov 2011 08:18:10 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-28530</guid>
		<description>After two days of frustration with Yii. I have come to the conclusion... 
 
1. For large websites and enterprise: Use a framework. 
 
2. For proof of concept and sites that are only a few pages. Use a lightweight framework like simple-php-framework: &lt;a href=&quot;http://code.google.com/p/simple-php-framework/&quot; rel=&quot;nofollow&quot;&gt;http://code.google.com/p/simple-php-framework/&lt;/a&gt; </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>After two days of frustration with Yii. I have come to the conclusion&#8230; </p>
<p>1. For large websites and enterprise: Use a framework. </p>
<p>2. For proof of concept and sites that are only a few pages. Use a lightweight framework like simple-php-framework: <a href="http://code.google.com/p/simple-php-framework/" rel="nofollow">http://code.google.com/p/simple-php-framework/</a></p>
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		<title>By: authentikit</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-25737</link>
		<dc:creator>authentikit</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 20 Oct 2011 14:09:43 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-25737</guid>
		<description>I totally agree with you here Mitch. I have played around with a few of these frameworks and have found myself at dead ends. You can NEVER implement exactly what you want to, too many guard rails and limitations. Yes standards are great, but why can&#039;t I develop my own? I mean, does facebook use a framework like Zend&#039;s? </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>I totally agree with you here Mitch. I have played around with a few of these frameworks and have found myself at dead ends. You can NEVER implement exactly what you want to, too many guard rails and limitations. Yes standards are great, but why can&#039;t I develop my own? I mean, does facebook use a framework like Zend&#039;s?</p>
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		<title>By: Tega Morkah</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-5697</link>
		<dc:creator>Tega Morkah</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 19 Jul 2010 04:36:24 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-5697</guid>
		<description>Yeah - U right -- 100% right.. i personally don&#039;t know the fuss bout frameworks - U know i tried frameworks over raw PHP and though it&#039;s simpler to use and provides some cool ready-made functions It just keeps u on the low and i personally think of it as a restriction though. 
 
One more thing and probably why i don&#039;t use frameworks - Though guys in the US or other countries that got TOP internet connection(FAST) don&#039;t care bout this but where am from our Internet is damn slow and i really hate uploading unnecessary codes for hours why i can just write my own small piece. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Yeah &#8211; U right &#8212; 100% right.. i personally don&#39;t know the fuss bout frameworks &#8211; U know i tried frameworks over raw PHP and though it&#39;s simpler to use and provides some cool ready-made functions It just keeps u on the low and i personally think of it as a restriction though. </p>
<p>One more thing and probably why i don&#39;t use frameworks &#8211; Though guys in the US or other countries that got TOP internet connection(FAST) don&#39;t care bout this but where am from our Internet is damn slow and i really hate uploading unnecessary codes for hours why i can just write my own small piece.</p>
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		<title>By: dlbrown06</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-5626</link>
		<dc:creator>dlbrown06</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 11:19:38 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-5626</guid>
		<description>Sure, why wouldn&#039;t you continue?  PHP frameworks are great.  They can save a lot of time.  I would suggest you use all the spare time you have to figure out the nuts and bolts of PHP thought.  If you try to learn PHP&#039;s frameworks before you fully understand the language, you could be setting yourself up for failure. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Sure, why wouldn&#039;t you continue?  PHP frameworks are great.  They can save a lot of time.  I would suggest you use all the spare time you have to figure out the nuts and bolts of PHP thought.  If you try to learn PHP&#039;s frameworks before you fully understand the language, you could be setting yourself up for failure.</p>
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		<title>By: ENI</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-5617</link>
		<dc:creator>ENI</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Thu, 17 Jun 2010 00:48:49 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-5617</guid>
		<description>Hello . I&#039;m begginer in php. I started a training in a company that works in a php framework. I&#039;m learning the concept of html , ajax , css , php ,etc. The idea is that after 2 month i will work in this framework. Is a good idea to continue , because i&#039;m afraid that i could&#039;t confront this work. Please help me  </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Hello . I&#39;m begginer in php. I started a training in a company that works in a php framework. I&#39;m learning the concept of html , ajax , css , php ,etc. The idea is that after 2 month i will work in this framework. Is a good idea to continue , because i&#39;m afraid that i could&#39;t confront this work. Please help me</p>
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		<title>By: anthony</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-2592</link>
		<dc:creator>anthony</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 27 Oct 2009 03:32:27 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-2592</guid>
		<description>Great replies above. I&#039;ve been coding php for around 6 years now. I taught myself and like many that taught themselves, wrote the same queries and scripts over and over and over at first. Then you figure out how functions work and start making yourself a library of reusable code. With your personal library, you craft new applications quicker. From your libraries and hard learned lessons writing raw php. Personally, I wouldn&#039;t recommend anyone jump head first into frameworks with PHP. Mostly, because you need to understand how things work and code some sites in a procedural way to gain some necessary experience with PHP. 
 
However, once you get far enough along, coding in a OO fashion using MVC is like a breath of fresh air. Especially for sites that a larger and more complex. Of course you can you craft your own framework, but why when there are tons of great frameworks and code libraries out there (that have large user bases). I&#039;m using Kohana and it&#039;s cut down development time from my old way of developing considerably. I wouldn&#039;t trade my knocks I took from learning php though. The more you know about coding raw PHP before working with a framework, the far better off you will be and be able to customize a framework to your liking. </description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Great replies above. I&#039;ve been coding php for around 6 years now. I taught myself and like many that taught themselves, wrote the same queries and scripts over and over and over at first. Then you figure out how functions work and start making yourself a library of reusable code. With your personal library, you craft new applications quicker. From your libraries and hard learned lessons writing raw php. Personally, I wouldn&#039;t recommend anyone jump head first into frameworks with PHP. Mostly, because you need to understand how things work and code some sites in a procedural way to gain some necessary experience with PHP. </p>
<p>However, once you get far enough along, coding in a OO fashion using MVC is like a breath of fresh air. Especially for sites that a larger and more complex. Of course you can you craft your own framework, but why when there are tons of great frameworks and code libraries out there (that have large user bases). I&#039;m using Kohana and it&#039;s cut down development time from my old way of developing considerably. I wouldn&#039;t trade my knocks I took from learning php though. The more you know about coding raw PHP before working with a framework, the far better off you will be and be able to customize a framework to your liking.</p>
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		<title>By: Douglas Brown</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-2223</link>
		<dc:creator>Douglas Brown</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Tue, 17 Mar 2009 12:11:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-2223</guid>
		<description>Thank you for the very insightful comment.  I tend to agree with your opinion. A lot of developers I feel put too much stock into frameworks.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>Thank you for the very insightful comment.  I tend to agree with your opinion. A lot of developers I feel put too much stock into frameworks.</p>
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		<title>By: Pete</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-2205</link>
		<dc:creator>Pete</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Mon, 16 Mar 2009 23:33:44 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-2205</guid>
		<description>This is just my opinion: 

My main issue with a lot of php frameworks is that they tend to force the developer to:

build an application from a framework, rather than building a framework for a needed application. 

eg. if you needed a motorcycle, you wouldn&#039;t build it from a car(where php is the engine).

Plus if you dont get under the hood of these frameworks, and understand it, you&#039;ll essentially be a driver rather than a mechanic of a php framework.

If you are using the Zend framework, you need to be v aware of the structure, which to my eye may be overly complex for most projects. Getting rid of spagetti code and replacing it with spagetti structure, IMHO.

View the structure here:http://talks.php.net/presentations/slides/intro/zf.png

Recently Rasmus Lerdorf (creator of php), gave an interesting talk on the subject of php and its frameworks, it may give you a clearer insight into you use of php ?

Video of talk http://www.archive.org/details/simple_is_hard
Slides of talk http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>This is just my opinion: </p>
<p>My main issue with a lot of php frameworks is that they tend to force the developer to:</p>
<p>build an application from a framework, rather than building a framework for a needed application. </p>
<p>eg. if you needed a motorcycle, you wouldn&#8217;t build it from a car(where php is the engine).</p>
<p>Plus if you dont get under the hood of these frameworks, and understand it, you&#8217;ll essentially be a driver rather than a mechanic of a php framework.</p>
<p>If you are using the Zend framework, you need to be v aware of the structure, which to my eye may be overly complex for most projects. Getting rid of spagetti code and replacing it with spagetti structure, IMHO.</p>
<p>View the structure here:<a href="http://talks.php.net/presentations/slides/intro/zf.png" rel="nofollow">http://talks.php.net/presentations/slides/intro/zf.png</a></p>
<p>Recently Rasmus Lerdorf (creator of php), gave an interesting talk on the subject of php and its frameworks, it may give you a clearer insight into you use of php ?</p>
<p>Video of talk <a href="http://www.archive.org/details/simple_is_hard" rel="nofollow">http://www.archive.org/details/simple_is_hard</a><br />
Slides of talk <a href="http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08" rel="nofollow">http://talks.php.net/show/drupal08</a></p>
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		<title>By: ronny stalker</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-1475</link>
		<dc:creator>ronny stalker</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 01 Feb 2009 17:31:25 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-1475</guid>
		<description>@luke
I agree with you Luke, and ZF had a very similar influence on me. The first time I read the docs, when ZF was young, it inspired me to get into OOP. It was the moment when I decided to buy and read the PHP 5 Objects, Patterns &amp; Practice Book (Matt Zandstra - Apress) - which changed my, php, life for the better.

In my previous comment I wasn&#039;t moaning that ZF is thoroughly documented. I was expressing my anguish that it can take a long time to learn a framework. When I first started reading about frameworks i got moved by the hype thinking that i had been slogging away &#039;coding the hard way&#039; whilst, all a long, a miraculous &#039;easy way&#039; had been there for the taking...
&quot;In 15 minutes, we go from scratch to complete weblog engine with comments, ajax, an ATOM feed...&quot;etc http://rubyonrails.org/screencasts

The point is - its not as miraculous as the the hype says it is. Its still hard learning. But, as Vip says, once mastered it can do wonders.

Anyway - Vip puts it much better than i did:

&quot;4. if you decide to use Frameworks, be ready for a long learning curve to master it, but it’s important to master it to make full use of it&quot;</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>@luke<br />
I agree with you Luke, and ZF had a very similar influence on me. The first time I read the docs, when ZF was young, it inspired me to get into OOP. It was the moment when I decided to buy and read the PHP 5 Objects, Patterns &amp; Practice Book (Matt Zandstra &#8211; Apress) &#8211; which changed my, php, life for the better.</p>
<p>In my previous comment I wasn&#8217;t moaning that ZF is thoroughly documented. I was expressing my anguish that it can take a long time to learn a framework. When I first started reading about frameworks i got moved by the hype thinking that i had been slogging away &#8216;coding the hard way&#8217; whilst, all a long, a miraculous &#8216;easy way&#8217; had been there for the taking&#8230;<br />
&#8220;In 15 minutes, we go from scratch to complete weblog engine with comments, ajax, an ATOM feed&#8230;&#8221;etc <a href="http://rubyonrails.org/screencasts" rel="nofollow">http://rubyonrails.org/screencasts</a></p>
<p>The point is &#8211; its not as miraculous as the the hype says it is. Its still hard learning. But, as Vip says, once mastered it can do wonders.</p>
<p>Anyway &#8211; Vip puts it much better than i did:</p>
<p>&#8220;4. if you decide to use Frameworks, be ready for a long learning curve to master it, but it’s important to master it to make full use of it&#8221;</p>
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		<title>By: Marco</title>
		<link>http://www.brownphp.com/2008/12/do-you-really-need-a-framework-for-writing-php/comment-page-1/#comment-1142</link>
		<dc:creator>Marco</dc:creator>
		<pubDate>Sun, 18 Jan 2009 08:28:34 +0000</pubDate>
		<guid isPermaLink="false">http://www.brownphp.com/?p=37#comment-1142</guid>
		<description>The divide between &quot;professionals&quot; and &quot;hobby geeks turned paid monkey&quot; is quite obvious.  Much like everything else in life people keep looking for ONE way to do everything.  It doesn&#039;t exist.

For every code junkie that thinks writing their own library/framework is better than getting whole heartedly behind a framework is better - there&#039;s a reason your life is the way it is and why you&#039;ll have a very hard time becoming VP.  You&#039;re selfish, insecure and afraid.

Selfish because you keep focusing on your convenience and habitual patterns instead of the company&#039;s bottom line.  Insecure because rolling your own libraries makes you feel important and irreplaceable, after all who knows your code better than you?  Afraid because joining a community of true professionals and freely contributing forces you to be scrutinized and to continually challenge yourself to increase your skill set.

There are millions of people who can get the job done.  There are millions of people just like you all over the internet.  There are kids in India right now that would steal your job for less than 1/10th what they pay you and you better believe they&#039;re crawling the web trying to learn more.

At the end of the day us little people at the bottom have to focus on the objectives of those at the top.  We are part of a massive global economic system with the internet becoming more accessible.  Information is free.  Programmer&#039;s are losing their value.  Big business need business leader&#039;s not just code junkies.  When you align yourself to the company&#039;s bottom line - ecreased expenses, ridiculous deadline, time-to-market, return-on-investment, competition, increased profitability, etc., etc. - you will find yourself

Keep in mind the things like PEAR, PCEL and other &quot;collections&quot; are already widespread.  The benefit of frameworks and widely supported libraries is that they have the opportunity to be stress tested through a greater variety of actual use scenarios that your private code doesn&#039;t get.  Also, from an enterprise perspective (you know the people that pay your salary) they are going to be very interested in long term product support, maintainability, scaling, project cost, etc.  

Building your application of top of a popular and widely supported framework, especially one like Zend Framework which works hard to maintain an enterprise friendly brand and support system is the difference between whether or not you&#039;ll have a job in five years.  Zend&#039;s name and certification system is what enterprises will place their confidence in.  So you can jump in wholeheartedly, contribute to make the framework better or look for another line of work because you&#039;ll be replaced by someone who is not only technically competent and skill but also a great business focused leader.



If you want a life that is more well rounded and free from the plagues that affect over 97% of the world then you must be swift to discern it&#039;s patterns and run in the opposite direction.  Flexibility is freedom.</description>
		<content:encoded><![CDATA[<p>The divide between &#8220;professionals&#8221; and &#8220;hobby geeks turned paid monkey&#8221; is quite obvious.  Much like everything else in life people keep looking for ONE way to do everything.  It doesn&#8217;t exist.</p>
<p>For every code junkie that thinks writing their own library/framework is better than getting whole heartedly behind a framework is better &#8211; there&#8217;s a reason your life is the way it is and why you&#8217;ll have a very hard time becoming VP.  You&#8217;re selfish, insecure and afraid.</p>
<p>Selfish because you keep focusing on your convenience and habitual patterns instead of the company&#8217;s bottom line.  Insecure because rolling your own libraries makes you feel important and irreplaceable, after all who knows your code better than you?  Afraid because joining a community of true professionals and freely contributing forces you to be scrutinized and to continually challenge yourself to increase your skill set.</p>
<p>There are millions of people who can get the job done.  There are millions of people just like you all over the internet.  There are kids in India right now that would steal your job for less than 1/10th what they pay you and you better believe they&#8217;re crawling the web trying to learn more.</p>
<p>At the end of the day us little people at the bottom have to focus on the objectives of those at the top.  We are part of a massive global economic system with the internet becoming more accessible.  Information is free.  Programmer&#8217;s are losing their value.  Big business need business leader&#8217;s not just code junkies.  When you align yourself to the company&#8217;s bottom line &#8211; ecreased expenses, ridiculous deadline, time-to-market, return-on-investment, competition, increased profitability, etc., etc. &#8211; you will find yourself</p>
<p>Keep in mind the things like PEAR, PCEL and other &#8220;collections&#8221; are already widespread.  The benefit of frameworks and widely supported libraries is that they have the opportunity to be stress tested through a greater variety of actual use scenarios that your private code doesn&#8217;t get.  Also, from an enterprise perspective (you know the people that pay your salary) they are going to be very interested in long term product support, maintainability, scaling, project cost, etc.  </p>
<p>Building your application of top of a popular and widely supported framework, especially one like Zend Framework which works hard to maintain an enterprise friendly brand and support system is the difference between whether or not you&#8217;ll have a job in five years.  Zend&#8217;s name and certification system is what enterprises will place their confidence in.  So you can jump in wholeheartedly, contribute to make the framework better or look for another line of work because you&#8217;ll be replaced by someone who is not only technically competent and skill but also a great business focused leader.</p>
<p>If you want a life that is more well rounded and free from the plagues that affect over 97% of the world then you must be swift to discern it&#8217;s patterns and run in the opposite direction.  Flexibility is freedom.</p>
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